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with Martha Kilpatrick and hosted by John Enslow
(M) (Martha laughs) And the evidence sometimes is not there, that I’m dead, and I believe the evidence rather than the Word and the revelation. But you have to have a revelation of that, because I’ve prayed and struggled for years to get that revelation. If He said I’m dead, and I feel alive, and know that I’m alive in the wrong nature, then how on earth do I get that? Well He simply gave it to me. I don’t know how. But I understand, thank God, that I’m dead in my sin nature. Yet I can call for the humanity to be, because I believe I’m dead. And that’s how I deal with so much. Paul said, “reckon yourself dead”, count, count yourself as dead; it’s done. And if you keep saying I’ve got to die, then you don’t get it; it’s unbelief. He doesn’t say you have to die. He says the cross will bring you to the death that is already accomplished. The cross will bring you to the death that is already accomplished. The cross is a daily death, but it is simply so that you can come to see what Christ has done, by knowing that you need to be dead. Most of us will not face how deeply wretched we are, to the point that we need to be ‘out of it’. I think I understood it in the beginning in a very childlike way, without being able to put it together like Oswald Chambers has in this book. But it’s so wonderful to me. It’s so fantastic to be alive, it says, ah, be alive to God. You are crucified now, but you’re alive to God; and that alive to God part has taken me a lot longer to get. But it’s so wonderful to just ‘be’, and let Him be whatever He wants to be; His splendor and His glory, I can’t see that on me or in me, but I’m confident His life is coming forth because I don’t have anything else that has any merit. I don’t want to live in my licentious sin-nature, I don’t want to live there; it makes me miserable. I want to live dead. I’ve come to that appreciation of the liberty, and it is the liberty of the sons of God. I’m free of myself. I’m free to have Him. I’m free to let Him express Himself through me. I’m free. And I’m free to be natural and just wait for Him to do whatever He’s going to do.
(J) It’s amazing that we don’t have to live under that vice-grip of controlling ourself.
(M) Right, we don’t.
(J) We’ve talked about the control of others, the tyranny of others, but you know. I know for me, I’m the biggest tyrant in my life to myself.
(M) Yes, yes, I’m the biggest legalist with me. And this is so well said in Oswald. God bless him. God be blessed for this man. “No one was ever created to be his or her own master, or to master other people. There’s only one Master of humanity, and that is Jesus Christ.” Oh! It’s liberty.
(J) (John lets his breath out in response to that thought.)
(M) (Martha laughs) May we get it. And then he says, very practically. He is so practical and down to earth; “When the pure divine comes in we have the difficulty of making the human nature the obedient servant of the new disposition.” Got it? Ok? “When the pure divine comes in we have the difficulty of making the human nature the obedient servant of the new disposition.” The human nature is supposed to be the ready vessel yielding always to the divine within, to Christ.
(J) Ok, do you remember the, my story about the…. When I was listening to the…. Before I really even came to the Shulamites, I was listening to that message called “The Mind Of The Spirit”, and I’d listen to it over and over and over. And I’d listened to it some twenty five times, and I said God, I mean I was getting real frustrated, and I said God, I cannot get this; I cannot hear it. He said, “Well you don’t have the, (Laughter) you don’t have the mind of the Spirit.” I went oh; so then I said, “Well Father then give me the mind of the Spirit”, and I heard the message.
(M) You said what to Him? Give me the mind of the Spirit?
(J) I said, “Then give me the mind of the Spirit Father. I yield it. I yield my mind. Give me the mind of the Spirit.” (Martha’s saying wow in the background.) And then I could hear the message. Well this is very, very similar, in that I cannot hear this, what you just said. I’m like going, huh? (Martha’s laughter) Read it one more time? Huh? One more time? I can’t hear that because I think that my thinking is so grooved into fighting my own human nature rather than yielding my human nature. I can say it all day long. Living it out is a totally different thing.
(M) Well he adds, “This is difficult, but thank God it is.” I don’t know why he’s thanking God. (Laughter)
(J) I’d prefer it wasn’t.
(M) (Laughing still) He knows something I don’t. But he says, “It is difficult.” That is the difficulty.
(J) Ok, for myself could you please read it one more time?
(M) Ok, “When the pure divine comes in”, (John: ok) and that was a new birth, and as we realize the divine has come in “we have the difficulty”, struggle (John: oh yeah.), “of making the human nature”, the pure created nature, the temperament, I could name it the temperament… “the obedient servant of the new disposition”, which is Christ. “It is difficult, and thank God it is.” “A saint”… and I read this earlier. “A saint is not an ethereal creature too refined for life on this earth.” Now you’ve not ever been willing to be that untruthful. You’re not that way. “A saint is a mixture of the divine and the humanly, can stand anything.” Maybe you’re, John, being willing to be an example of one who has rejected the whole human being, and wanted to be rid of your whole self.
(J) Oh yeah, absolutely, just wipe the whole thing away, and let’s start fresh.
(M) Well, one of the first things the Lord said to me, probably almost forty years ago, He said, ‘You would rather be an angel. You don’t want to be human and stumble around. You don’t want to be… You just don’t want to be human. You want to be some floating ethereal being’. And He said, “I chose to put my Spirit in human nature, and you will have to be human to have My Spirit.” I mean He, years and years ago, He put that in me. It’s taken me many years to comprehend what He meant. But I relaxed in that word; I had the power from His Voice to just relax and say oh, ok, it’s ok for me to be human? Oh, ok, then I will. And that to me was the beginning of this strange way that God has set it up. He made human nature, He said ‘it is good’. It’s the sin nature that is our relationship with the devil. That clarifies so much for me that I have known but not known how to express or put together. So I thank Him for this timing. It is so perfect. He’s always so perfect to give me in the stream of this that we’ve been talking about. In the Manna I’m talking about the human. In the pod-casts I’m talking about choice and control and tyranny. And to me this is the….
(J) And that’s what you did in the C.D. of the month. You’ve been saying the same thing, haven’t you?
(M) Yes, the C.D. of the month was a deeper explanation of these two things.
(M) So, yeah, I remember.
(J) Well I mean this is not going to be something that I’m just going to say, oh, I am there! I’m going to have to go and just really submit it and yield it.
(M) Yes, you’re going to have to need it.
(J) I definitely need it.
(M) And you have to be willing to need it, and you have to be willing, I don’t mean to lecture you, but….
(M) You’re going to have to be willing to take this misery and this confusion of hating the entire package.
(J) Well it’s my dogmatic self. It’s the ok, well….
(M) Black and white.
(J) Yeah, if there’s a speck on the white jacket, throw out the jacket and get a new white jacket.
(M) (Martha laughs) No, the speck is removed; and the sin nature has been solved. And I saw it so clearly this morning. Just struck me down that He… Every aspect of the offerings, the sin offerings, was an aspect of our sin nature that Christ bore and covered with the blood and took away. John, you’ve always said that God has made you a prototype. He’s told you that. That means a living example, a vivid picture of a message, I’ll say.
(J) An object lesson.
(M) Oh, there you go, an object lesson. And so you are willing to be that, and people appreciate it in you, that you’re willing to be an object lesson.
(J) No, it’s not willingness. (Martha laughs) It ‘is’. I cannot escape it.
(M) No, it takes a great deal of humiliation, that leads to humility, to accept your humanity in all it’s flaws. And once you accept it then you need the blood. And once you need the blood you have the blood. And then you are free of that weight of the sin nature; both by current application of the blood that brings you to the faith, and the past resolution, which is in the death of Christ. And then you’re alive to God. And being alive to God doesn’t mean you’re strong and able and magnificent. It means you’re like Paul, you have to live by the sufficiency of His grace in the middle of your trembling weakness.
(J) Well here’s a for-instance. When we were going out… When we needed to get some dinner… So we went out and we were going off in Vienna. And we were going to go and find some dinner. You had something that felt like the Lord had given you, where it was to be.
(M) Yeah, I had in my mind…. We had been busy. We’d been going to the concentration camp, to prayer meetings, and I needed to sit down with you in a quiet place, a very calm atmosphere, which in the city is hard to find. And I wanted to have a tiny simple meal and just sit and talk about the pod-cast that was coming, so that we could be aware of what the Holy Spirit was…. Excuse me for interrupting. That’s what I had in my mind. I couldn’t have expressed it to you. I just said, John, I need to be with you and sit down.
(J) But you didn’t say that. You didn’t let me know that, but that was ok. So I went off to find, you know. The administrator went off to find the restaurant that we were supposed to eat at. And you know I do that real intuitively usually. And so, I just started flowing.
(M) You ended up saying, “Let’s just go back to the apartment and eat a sandwich.” And it was kind of confusing and we looked at this and looked at that. And I still didn’t tell you what I wanted, but my spirit fell when you said, “Let’s go back to the apartment.”
(J) And then I saw your spirit fall, because I’m aware of where your spirit is. And so I saw your spirit fall. Like a little flower, you wilted. And I went “oh.” And then I wasn’t aware … You’re hungry, and what your need was and everything like that. I said, “Well, let’s walk around here. Let’s go this way around this,” rather than going straight back.
(M) And you said, ‘what is it’? And I said,” I’m hungry, and I just wanted a peaceful place.” And then you said, “Ok, let’s just walk.” And then you tell where we went.
(J) So then we just started walking. And I’m telling you, you know, I’m grieving, because I’m going…. There’s my humanity. I’m going, what is the problem here. You know? And so we ended up winding up at this restaurant called “The Five Senses”, and it was a very, very, minimalist restaurant. There was nobody else in it. The food was very wonderful. It was very simple.
(M) And it was very serene in there; very clean and stark, beautifully stark, and that’s exactly….
(J) But there was nobody in there but you and I, and the waitress that would occasionally come. And we got very small little portions of food, and it was delicious. It was wonderful.
(M) And we were able to…. What I envisioned came about.
(J) And I said that the Lord has to take me like a bull with a ring in his nose. And that’s my struggle with my humanity.
(M) You know, John, I think you believe that your humanity takes you over, and so it does. But when you know that you need to be in a direction, you’re perfectly capable of moving by the Spirit in your spirit. You instinctively move; I said to you I just wanted a quiet place to sit and talk about the podcast and what’s on my heart. And once you got that, you somehow internally submitted to the Lord. And then by your spirit you moved in the right direction to find it. But I believe if you could just take your faith in this, what you call your humanity that takes license, and if you could believe… That’s unbelief.
(J) And ‘it’s impossible to please God without faith’, so…
(M) Yeah, it’s only faith that you need. You need the faith that you’re exuberant nature of humanity is under His dominion with the divine within you. Because when you move in the Spirit, you’re extremely brilliant. So it’s just… It’s a matter of faith. Ask Him for the faith to believe that that ‘out of the box’ humanity has been dealt with, and that Christ in you is able to be exuberant in much the same way, but divine. Does that make sense to you?
(M) I think it’s the obstacle to your moving in the Spirit naturally all the time, because when you hit that need to be in the Spirit, you are incredible.
(J) Well I found exactly what you needed.
(M) Yes, but you found it instinctively, by needing to do God’s will.
(J) And I felt like what had to happen was that the bull had to step on the little flower and wilt it.
(M) (Laughing) Well, it was a great lesson. It really was. And I needed to just trust God.
(J) But if you hadn’t been wilted, the bull may have not said, ‘Oh, I’ve stepped on a flower’. (Martha laughs)