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Discerning The False (Part Four)
With Martha Kilpatrick and hosted by John Enslow
Special guests: Jennifer Wentzel and Carole Nelson
(M) We’re entering the great massive vomiting of hell that’s bringing out anti-Christ, and we have to know, Church. The Church must be able to discern by the Spirit, not by judging, not by human logic, not by human opinion, not by condemnation, but by the Spirit. I’ve walked with people years and years, and was kept from knowing the real heart. God kept me from knowing. But when it was time to see it, it was all splayed out, and the Holy Spirit will show it. But He doesn’t show you things to go around condemning. He shows you people, and He lets you have a vision of who they are. And sometimes you can even be fooled and think you know who they are, and it’s ok, as long as you are in the Spirit. And He builds that love so then when it comes time to correct it’s all done in the Spirit by God Himself, on the foundation and the relationship and history of love and commitment. So…
(J) Most that correct and discipline and… they’re just doing externals. It’s just externals and that has nothing to do with God. God usually… The thing that I want Him to deal with, and saying let’s deal with this area, He ignores, because He’s like, “I’m over here. This is what I’m on.” And you gotta be where, what He’s ‘on’. And externals is just a law keeper, and that’s death.
(M) Well, it’s the typical counseling now. It’s behavioral management. “I’ll teach you how to behave, monitor your behavior so you’re not so obnoxious,” but you’re still obnoxious inside and that’s not, that’s not God’s way. God’s way is to go for the root, pull out the root. And most of the time there’s no other root than bitterness. But you’re right, John, it’s not a matter… It’s a matter of God’s knowledge of us.
(J) He’s Father. He’s the Father. He’s the only One that can be the Head. The children don’t tell the Father how to be a Father. Otherwise they’re the father or some kind of bastardization of that, absolutely. (John laughs.)
(Jennifer) I’ve finally come to a heart understanding of a verse I learned long, long ago in Sunday school. I’m not even sure it’s the right, but, “Yeah though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil for Thou art with me. Thy rod and Thy staff, they comfort me.” And I think about that so often, because of course the rod and the staff are for hookin’ and crookin’, discipline, getting the sheep back in line, getting them going the right direction and out of the mouth of the mountain lion, whatever, that they’re probably wandering over to sniff and make friends with. Ah, it’s a comfort that He brings the discipline, that He brings the correction. And it’s a comfort because the result every single time when He does it, whether it’s something He brings to me in my morning time, something that I’m reading that all of a sudden ‘boom!’ you know, the heart light goes off and you’re like, “Oh, God, it’s me.” You know, that sort of thing. Or if it’s a word that’s been brought to me by John or Martha or Carole or whatever, there is such comfort in that because ah, you can get so twisted up, and I don’t think I’m alone in this, where you feel that you must protect yourself, you must ‘parent’ yourself. You must be on top of, ok, what is wrong with me, what do I need to fix, ‘blah, blah, blah, blah.’ All right, and you can’t do it. And the more I relax into the love that is His discipline, the more I trust that I can be the child and know that I have a Father Who is going to tell me when it’s time stop playing in the sand box because I just did something wrong. Do you know what I mean? It’s not me trying to stay on top of myself, which is impossibility; I can’t do it and it’s so stressful, and it’s such a burden, and I always mess it up, always. And that discipline, that, that, comforting correction says, “Yes, see, I will let you know what’s wrong, in My time. I will be faithful to continue to work sanctification. I will continue to make you more and more Mine. We will get rid of these things; we’ll get rid of them in My time. I’ve got it. I got this! I’m in control, I’m on the throne, you know? Stop. Stop worrying about it. Stop thinking about it. Stop spending your time on stuff that you shouldn’t be. I got this! I’m here.” And with each correction, I don’t know, it’s just a, a deeper trust and a deeper relaxation of those parts of me that have been holding on with both hands for so long in the belief that I had to. That I had to be on top of me and fixing me, and handling me, and that’s just you know the further explosion of Isaiah 50:11 which is what He gave me. Out dancing around and trying to deal with your own salvation, work out your own salvation, light your own fires, strange fire. He basically says, “This will you have from My hand, you’ll lie down in grief and torment.” And that’s such love. That’s such love, and so with His discipline there is no grief, there’s no torment, there’s no agony, just peace and trust and love. It’s awesome.
(M) I had a strange experience before this last conference, “The Reign Of Grace”. We got to the hotel on Wednesday to meet friends from Spain. But Thursday and most of Friday, up until the evening beginning I had reserved to work on my message, to sort of develop the end of it which I knew was, was not really together. But the Holy Spirit wouldn’t let me do that. All I could do was worship Him for almost two days, with a song by Ortega, “We have an Anchor that keeps the soul, steadfast and sure as the billows roll, founded on the Rock that cannot move, deep and strong in the Savior’s love.” I played that thing a hundred times and was worshipping God in that. I could not get to the message, so I was a little disorganized it seemed at the end. But I found this verse, and this is what you’re saying, Jennifer. I stumbled on it. I did not remember that song was based on scripture. It’s Hebrews 6:18 and 19. It says, “God’s promise and oath in which it’s impossible for God ever to prove false or deceive us; we who have fled to Him for refuge might find mighty indwelling strength and strong encouragement to grasp and hold fast the hope appointed for us and set before us. Now we have this hope as a sure and steadfast anchor of the soul. It cannot slip and it cannot break down under whoever steps out upon it, a hope that reaches farther and enters into the very certainty of the Presence within the veil.” And then the next verse is “Jesus has entered for us in advance, a Forerunner having become a High Priest after the order of Melchizedek.” But that’s, that’s the Anchor. He is the Anchor of my soul. In other words, He’s got it. As you said, you put your hand up like a fist. He has my soul as securely as an Anchor. It will not move, it will not. He will take care of my salvation if I will let Him. He will take care of my sanctification if I will let Him. He will take care of my chastening, my correcting, my purity. He promises that He is able to present us pure and faultless, without blame, before the presence of His glory when He returns. He promises. He’s able to do that. I don’t want to be a problem fighting that ability of His to correct me. So it’s, you’re right. It’s wonderful, and the Body of Christ should be a safety net as you describe, John, a place of love and where Christ can be Who He is, and even as fierce as He was. I read, Guyon said, “He was always gentle and kind.” Oh, not the One I know. The One I know took a whip He made Himself, calculated overnight and went into the temple and beat the people and turned over the money tables and drove people out and let their animals go loose and their birds fly away. That’s my God in His zeal for the house of God, which is the Church. That is His zeal. He confronted the Pharisees. It’s written down as though it’s emotionless. It’s written down as though it isn’t screaming. I am sure that He was extremely confrontive in those sessions where He confronted the Pharisees . So… And I told in the conference, when the Lord said to me, “I overcame evil and I want you to learn to overcome evil as well.” And had had no clue over the years how to obey that mandate, absolutely no clue; it has happened. You overcome evil not by sweetness, but by a love so fierce, so white hot that it will save you from yourself. That’s how… Overcome evil with good? Oh my goodness, not my good. There is no such thing. The Bible says there’s not such thing as any good in me, or any, anybody. But the good that He is is a good that is so good that He will take the place of a Father to save us from our stupidity as sheep, with that rod and staff. Thank you. As you told it Jennifer I suddenly saw it the way you were going to tell it, rods, (Jennifer laughs, says yes)
(Jennifer) Rods, yes.
(M) and staffs. (Martha laughs.)
(Jennifer) Yes. Not small instruments.
(M) Comfort me. Isn’t that amazing? Comfort me, I never saw it like that, quite that way.
(Jennifer) Well, I didn’t either, I’ve recited that since I was young, you know, ‘la-la-la-la-laa) and some things just sit in there until you’re ready for them I guess. I don’t know.
(Jennifer) But that’s kind of what that was, but I have one last thing about the confrontation. (she laughs) This is, I’m not going to name names or say organizations or anything, but there are plenty of churches and Christian associations that ‘Yaaaaaa!’ go against the evils of the world and defend the Church and God and ‘niaaah’, ok? Great, fabulous, He might have given that to you. I don’t know, I don’t care. It’s not in my purview right now. It takes infinitely greater courage to confront a friend than it does an out and out enemy. Uhmm, and I think it’s so fortunate that we have ready, daily access to His courage, because that’s the courage it requires. We haven’t got it. It’s His courage and His love that punches through and, and gives us what we need to do that. It’s no small thing and I know that. I want to make sure it’s something that I seem to have made light of, because I don’t. But it’s one thing to confront someone who’s openly your enemy and who is an enemy of God and proud of it and then you can ‘ieyaa-ieyaa-ieyaa’, (Jennifer laughs) you know, great. Can you turn around to the person in the pew behind you who’s been there for ten years, who you’re in the Kiwanis club with and ah, your kids go to school together and all the rest of that and it’s going to cause a massive upheaval, a ripping through the very fabric of that church, if that….
(J) It’s going to cost you!
(Jennifer) It’s going to cost you! What if it costs you everything? What if people say ‘that guys crazy’, came at me like a lunatic, can’t be trusted. Suddenly you’re not invited to bridge anymore and your wife’s tea parties are empty. That’s the confrontation. Talk to me then about courage, because that’s what we’re talking about. It’s everything on the line. It’s not small thing, but it’s also nothing that’s going to be in us because I’m a coward. I’m a complete coward. And it’s gotta be His courage, and it’s fully there for me when I get out of the way.
(M) I worked with someone over, actually over a period of several years. And it was an entire relationship of confrontation. And I sensed, the Lord let me know His great passion for this person, and His great, urgent, really His great need of her. It was something I had not quite experienced before, but He would not let me off the hook and His passion would come through to just ‘smack her and smack her’. And she took it great and the outcome is just heavenly. But I said to her once, “You don’t understand now, but one day you will.” She came to me in great admiration of me, great almost awe of me, and here I became this disciplinarian that wouldn’t let her get off the hook with any of her delusions. And I said to her, “You don’t understand, some day you will, that I’m destroying myself for your sake.” I’m risking your hate for me, your discrediting of me. I’m risking…I didn’t tell her that but that’s what… I knew what the cost, what it could be to me. And she later came and said, “I see.” So that’s how you lay down your life for your brother. That’s what you’re talking about, Jennifer. Will you do God’s will for your brother no matter what. If it means you’re discredited, you’re called names, and even if you die. That’s that is what Christ… You’re right, it’s not me. It’s not you. It’s not any person. That is Who Christ is. He laid down His life for me and He wants to, He wants me to follow that and allow Him to lay down His life again in reputation, in safety, in reputation and voracity. He wants to lay His life down again, using me. And that’s, that’s what’s missing in the vast Christianity, and that’s what’s needed.
(Carole) And because of that the Church is full of false prophets and sheep that are scattered, and many going in the wrong direction.