With Martha Kilpatrick and hosted by John Enslow
Special guests: Jennifer Wentzel, Julie, and Carole Nelson
(J) I don’t know, you mentioned, “The Lord Of The Rings” at a conference, and I just think about how the source of evil was an eye.
(M) Hmmm. Interesting.
(J) Isn’t it interesting that, that Soron, Soron was an eye basically. Why was Soron an eye Jennifer?
(Jennifer) Well, because his uhmm, corporeal form I guess, was destroyed in the first war, and he was reduced to basically, a single malevolent awareness. And that’s essentially uhmm, what he was. He could no longer take, ahmm, form in the sense of being able to be active and engaged in everything. His was uhmm, I think Tolkein describes it as, over and over again, as ah, malevolence, a living malevolence that wherever that eye turned he saw, and was able to ahmm, infect his minions with fear and hatred and control them that way. That was his only means of connecting.
(J) And I’m wondering if that’s not Satan’s only thing, is the fact that he has to pull the gaze of God off of us. To basically convince us that God’s eye is not on us, and the evil eye is on us. And that, and then we take on that fear, and that hatred and that bitterness, that when we believe in evil, when we believe in lack, when we believe in the fact that we’re not looked upon, we go into that fear and hatred and bitterness and become evil. But ah, but God’s continually trying to communicate to us that I’m looking at you. And I think that that’s the main point of healing is to make that switch. I, I just don’t think ah, you know, an accident that it’s an eye.
(M) Well, I keep thinking of some of the psalms, and prophet’s too, would say, they lie in wait and watch to kill, and that there is a ‘watching’ that Satan does. And I think you’re right John, if you don’t see a responsive look, then you believe that God is not good, and doesn’t see you and doesn’t care.
(J) And I don’t really care if Satan’s looking at me, I care that God’s not looking at me. And I think it’s a convincing that… That’s the whole purpose of Satan is to convince me. What is every attack that has come upon you? What is it? It tells you that you’re not loved. And so ah, if Satan can convince me that God’s eye is not on me, then, then that’s where, where I go awry.
(Jennifer) I was also thinking, with that, with the gaze, if we can be convinced that God does not see us, we lose fear of the Lord. Because if we can buy deeply into the delusion that we are not seen, then what do we have to fear? There are no consequences. That’s, that’s I think how the consequences go away. Because you get to the point where you say, “You don’t love me, You don’t know, You don’t care, so You know what? I’m not going to be accountable. I’m not seen, I can do whatever I want, it doesn’t matter.” That fear of the Lord is gone because you’ve convinced yourself; you’ve bought into the idea that you are not seen. You’ve bought the lie. I don’t know.
(M) Oh, Jennifer, you’ve just explained something to me I‘ve not been able to understand. Because the explanation in the psalms of the wickedness is, “The fool has said in his heart there is not God; and God will not see.” It says God will not see what I’m doing. Oh my goodness, you believe you’re not seen. Oh me.
(J) The ministry of being seen by God is amazing. It’s not the presence of God as much as it’s the focus of God, the eye of God, the gaze of God. Hmmm.
(M) Well, I think where I went with that was before the conference we were…oh, it’s hard to describe how very busy, how very much at war we were before the conference. But one of the comforting things the Lord said to me was, we will all be changed by the conference. And I was thinking about Carole, and the countenance and manner of Carole is different this morning than I’ve ever seen her. Yeah, there’s something you’ve seen, I don’t know…. She said, “I don’t know what it is, but I know it.” And I don’t know where I am changed, I really don’t know, except that I, I feel like I was more myself in this conference; more just myself. I don’t know. Jacquelyn says she was too. But I don’t know how the message that came affected us all. Does anybody? Has anybody got that yet?
(Julie) One thing that blessed me was when John read out of his journals. And I didn’t realize it until this moment when you said it, but I think really, at least this change is very freeing. It’s like somehow in what John shared, it gave me the freedom to enjoy God’s gaze to me; You know what I’m saying? …Because John was describing being able to love. You said at one point, I’m falling in love with the little boy. And it was just a permission to realize that it’s a need, it’s a terrific need that I have, to know… And I think that’s why I remembered the story from Israel too. It’s just a need that I have, but you gave some kind of entrance into a freedom to enjoy, to enjoy seeing what God sees; Even to have the courage, I’ve been praying this the last several days, I want to have the courage to look straight into Your eyes, and see what You’re seeing in me. And I don’t think I’ve ever, ever done that in my whole life, so. I don’t know, so that was a wonderful thing that happened.
(Carole) This just comes to me, but I’ve been thinking about it since I told the little story about John, He’s washing my eyes. I don’t know how, but He’s washing my eyes.
(Julie) I don’t know if this will end up on tape, but since Carole’s already done it, then I can too. (Julie laughs) I’ll just say that John, because you’re willing to look into the face of the Father, and, and receive what He sees back in you, it has a kind of a forerunner type effect, or a, I don’t know, I don’t understand how all that works. But it, it does seem to open a path for others of us to follow. So I appreciate you for that.
(M) I think it’s very difficult for a man to be that vulnerable and that open, because I think basically most men are very afraid little boys. And I think you open a path for men to have permission, if they’ll take it, to be open hearted, like Peter and John the beloved, and… So I appreciate that you do that. I think you give that example of letting God look at you, and you looking at God in all raw honesty. The voice of a man in relationship with God is quite different than a woman. And ah, I think John Eldrige has that ministry, and that message to men in his book “Wake The Dead.” And I know that was very vulnerable, what you shared, but as Jennifer said earlier, it was very holy, very beautiful.
(Jennifer) Earlier I was trying to answer the question for myself, what the conference was or did, and I still don’t have an answer. (Jennifer laughs) But I remember thinking at one point having talked to several people, that if we all told the story of the week to month, whatever, leading up to this conference, I think that through line would be a plowing, a furrowing. Uhm, and I’ll just say, you know, in my case all God, because even the warfare was sovereignly covered, and all to my state going into the conference was just wrecked, broken. Uhmm, I was a mess. I was unable to have the mask that I usually prefer, which is, honestly, the one that greets people but only lets in who I want to let in. Do you know what I mean? And that was not possible going into this conference. And I feel like the message of the conference, that there was a preparation that went into everyone. Because I know just from this group, everyone had a preparation, if you will, going into the conference. And quite often painful things that kind of had all of us a little more open and vulnerable than maybe we would have preferred to be, or normally would have been; I don’t know. But that continued on with people I talked to at the conference. So I think that preparation was probably there for anyone. And what I saw was this, a very stark response of the heart to the message. And people who… It was just uhmm, it was a heart response. I think that, you know, and I’m not getting off on the negative here, but some people responded joyfully and with hunger, and even in tears there was gladness there in their response. And some people, I think thought that their response was careful. But at least to me, there was kind of a reckless exposure of people who I’m sure would have preferred, like I would have going into the conference, to be a little more in control of what I said, did, wore on my face, tone in my voice. Do you know… I’m not sure if I’m making sense, but I feel that there was an exposure of the heart that the Holy Spirit brought out in this conference, and in this message. And it was a clarion call that you sent out, a Deborah call. But I think the gift of God was that the heart response was not hidden in anyone, even from themselves, is what it seemed to me; and I think that was it. It wasn’t so much an exposure for you if you happened to be looking around at someone. For me it was an exposure of my heart to me. What is my response, my instinctive response? And what am I, what am I going to do about that in my personal relationship with God. And uhmm, that is a gift; it’s painful, but it is a gift to, to have that heart response, there, and unhidden from myself. And I think even if they wanted to, ah, people were exposed to themselves, which to me is, is far more valuable often than even being exposed to other people because we lie so effectively to ourselves.