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Moving With The Spirit
With Martha Kilpatrick and hosted by John Enslow
(J) Well, Martha, it is just you and I today, and I’ve kind of wondered when we were going to do another podcast and it’d just be you and me. I’ve kind of missed it, so I hope other people miss it as well and enjoy it as much as I do. I was thinking about today, I was thinking about the podcast that we did about correction, that chastisement, and I was thinking about that and I was thinking about, you know, bringing the sword and the correction and everything like that, the Lord was bringing. And I think I have a different little perspective from a life lesson on that, that I’d like to bring to you today. When I first came to Shulamite Ministries, you know I had my own dogma’s, my own thoughts and everything like that, and what I’ve learned is, when I, when someone was chastised or the sword came or something like that…
(M) Or even separated from us.
(J) Right, exactly, separation or whatever. There was, there was a click in my head that made it permanent. And it was like, ok, well this was said, this was done, it’s over, and you know, you just kind of wiped them away. Ok. And I’ve had people recently contact us about the book “The Separator”, and trying to figure out, oh what does this mean, what does this mean? And it’s such a deep and holy work of the Spirit of sanctification and consecration, that I really can’t just say it’s just saying no and go away. It’s so much more beyond that. But when I first came there would some dealings and there would be say the sword would fall, and then in my head that was over basically.
(J) Forever, yeah. And so what I have learned by sticking my neck out on a regular basis in that vein, and having it lopped off by the Lord, that though there is a separation today, there could be reconciliation tomorrow; and the person that is excommunicated so to speak, today, could be worshipping with me tomorrow. And you know, I would say, “Well God, You said this,” and He said, “Yes, I said that for that moment, but I’m God, and I say what I say. And you can’t put Me in a box and say…” And that’s really what it is; it’s a box that says these boundaries will not ever be breached again. And then the Lord says, “I don’t have any boundaries. You’re, little boxes mean absolutely nothing to Me.” And I’ve learned that by walking with you and seeing Who God is, that nothing is forever.
(M) He is so anxious for reconciliation, not for separation; I make that point in the booklet. And so many people are reading it right now I feel I need to go back and read it, because I’m going through it myself right now. But see, I have such a peculiar background, because I was taught by the Lord; I would love to have had a church with, you know, dogma that I could have fit in. I would have fit in nicely. But God, He so trained my in the Spirit alone that when we joined a Bible believing church that was so rigid I didn’t even recognize the rigidity because it didn’t, it wasn’t real to me. I already knew Who He was. And we laughed this morning on the phone because I said, “The wind blows where it wills.”
(J) It absolutely…
(M) You don’t know where it’s coming from and you don’t know where it’s going. The moment God is satisfied there is total reconciliation, complete wipeout of the sin, complete restoration, the moment that God is pleased. The question is, is God pleased?
(M) And sometimes it takes; it can take twelve years.
(M) And, and a person can come back in complete restoration. But we may have a strange history, John, because as a group, because we’ve had people come in who were so evil. We’ve had people show up and join us, that we received that turned out to be so evil, so I don’t know. But I do know that we’re living in Acts. We’ve had our Ananias and Sapphira. And we’ve had numbers of other things. And Paul separated from Barnabas was it? I’m going to go through Acts and take note of the movement of the Church. But if the Holy Spirit is really in charge, it is fluid. That’s the only word I can say it; the best word is the wind, because that’s what Jesus told. Nicodemus was anxious to know this Man, and met Him at night, but Jesus confronted him on his dogma, his legalism, his boxes as you say. And He said…
(J) This is my only understanding, how could a man be born again? That was his box, and God said, “I have no interest in that box, I’m going to explode that box, and I’m going to show you.” And it was, I would think, quite offensive, for how Jesus did him. But I have a sense that there was kind of a smile in Nicodemus as well, you know, and his life would prove that out that there was a smile and he says, ok, I’ve been ah…
(M) (Martha laughs.) I’ve been topped. Ah, well he was there at Jesus’ burial.
(M) And ah, “I have said to Nicodemus, you must be born again. The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it’s going, so with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
(M) See the life of the Spirit is that, John, its ever moving. And the Lord told me one time, “I don’t value organization.” That’s what I wanted, organization on all levels. “No, I don’t value, what I value is flexibility.” At the time I didn’t understand how it fit with that passage. But He trained me to move, no matter what the situation and I don’t say I do it perfectly, no way. I don’t do it perfectly. “God, please make me come to such surrender that it’s perfect.” But He taught me to move with the Spirit, and to have no… We’re to be tent followers. We’re to pick up and move. We are to be able to shift, and Acts is full of that. Acts is the, the model for the Church. It’s just the model we don’t want because the Holy Spirit is scary. He does move where He pleases.
(M) He does do what He wills. And you really never know what’s coming.
(J) Well it’s so offensive. It’s so offensive.
(M) It’s out of control, that’s why it’s offensive. Because I came to see in the churches we were in, that the pastor or the board’s control was the agenda; it was not the agenda to follow the Spirit. But the way, we have to follow the ways of the Spirit, and we have to be very surrendered to catch on to where He’s going.
(J) Well, I’ve noticed this just yesterday. Some people will come to the conference and they will say, you know, they don’t like this particular thing; this is chaotic, or this isn’t ordered or whatever, and then you go, you know, you’re the exact same person that says you wish that the Spirit had complete control. But the fact is, is that we don’t really want Him to have complete control, because…
(M) We want control.
(J) We want control. And we’re offended and hurt when He steps on us. And He specifically does it. He purposes to step on our feelings when they try to box Him in.
(M) That’s why at the end of the schedule I always say, this is a mere suggestion. This is not a promise, because the Holy Spirit is in charge. And never in any conference have we so had the Holy Spirit interrupt us as we did this last one. But really, I’m not, He taught me painfully and at great cost to say, “Tomorrow we will do this or that if the Lord is willing. Anything else is of the evil one.” Anything else is… The reason it’s of the evil one is that it’s rigid, it assumes, presumes on God.
(J) Yeah, and you used to say that, and I remember very specifically being offended by it. I would go, ‘I don’t like that’. Not offended like, oh my-gosh I can’t believe you would say that; there was just this ‘kink’ in my heart would go ‘ouuuu’. And I realized what…
(M) I can’t count on you, is that what?
(J) A little bit, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And, and there’s almost like you can get offended. You say, how irresponsible that is. Oh it’s just so… But havelearned, I havelearned that God is going to do what God wants to do, when He wants to do it, how.
(M) And you’re either with Him, or you’re not with Him.
(J) There has got to be such a ‘John the beloved’ ear to the chest of Jesus relationship with Him. That’s the same kind of relationship you have to have with the Spirit. You have got to be so ear to the chest of the Spirit, so to speak, and listen to where His heart is beating, and how His heart is beating, and where, what direction His heart is beating, because He does, He changes all the time.
(M) And I think you have to trust your walk with Him. You have to trust by knowing that you are His. And you have to trust the instincts, because so many times it merely comes as instinct. This morning you said something to me very passionately as it was, as if it was your feeling. And I said, “No John, if you come across as your feeling, it will be some dogma, or it will be offensive. What you are feeling is the Spirit. That I can relate to.” And I was right, wasn’t I? You were feeling the Spirit.
(M) But it came across and in you as the instinctive response, and you would say, “I don’t want this, and I…”
(J) I think what He does is, is He ties my heart to it, and my emotions and my feelings, and then He says, “Now, let’s go higher, with My feelings, My emotions, and My thoughts about it.” And then it still has connected ah…
(M) It’s connected to you, but He has moved it into Himself. Is that right?
(M) I’m excited about it, and don’t mean to interrupt you but, I’m excited because one of the purposes of the Body is to come together and say this is the Spirit, this is not. Our great long history has been, we’ve not been willing to in a meeting say, “Wait a minute, you’re not in the Spirit. Does anybody agree with this?” And we’ve been chastened that we haven’t done that, because there’s one, one mandate to the Church, one mandate to this little group. Walk in the Spirit.
(J) But it’s not like it’s from the tree of knowledge, you’re not judging; if you’re just doing yes for right and no for wrong and you’re just judging in the tree, that is death. But the fact is, is that it has to be a relational thing. It has to be a tangible, relational thing with the Spirit that He… You just sense that He’s not ‘there’; He’s not moving. You have to be so aware of Him that you’re saying, I don’t, I don’t see Him there, rather than you’re not there, you’re not in the right place, you’re like He’s not there with you. (John laughs.)
(M) Yeah. And it’s a favor. We are to help each other. One thing is walk in the Spirit, submit to the Spirit. God has given that provision. The Holy Spirit will lead us in complete unity. If we’re in the Spirit we’ll be together, and we are to an amazing degree. It took us a long time to get here, but ah…
(J) It’s following His breeze.
(J) It’s following where He’s moving and what He’s doing, and what He’s on, and it’s, when it blows in between us and around in us, you’re just… He orchestrates the entire meeting because out this one, this will come. Out of this one, this will come, and it’s just perfectly orchestrated.
(M) Yeah. It’s not; it’s in another realm.
(J) It’s beautiful.
(M) Oh, it’s so beautiful. We’ll be going on… Carole is a brilliant to have one sentence or one scripture that sums up a conversation that’s gone on for twenty minutes. She will come in, and then you’ll just say, ahhh.