with Martha Kilpatrick and hosted by John Enslow
(M) John, I’ve been around the world since the last pod-cast, not literally, but spiritually. But I do remember it was about sovereign love, right?
(J) Yeah, absolutely.
(M) And one of the things I think that you said was that people don’t want God to be sovereign.
(J) Right, nobody wants a sovereign God.
(M) So this morning I’m going to tell you why. Everything in my life probably, in the last three or four months, is about the manuscript on Cain and Able. I’m living through some intense experiences that are teaching me how to end the book. And I’ve come to see that the bottom line of Cain, and the battle line of humanity, is one thing. Would you like to ask what the one thing is?
(J) Well, since I’ve already been on it this morning, I already know what’ the one thing’ is, because God has been pointing His finger into my chest and saying, here, this is what we’re going to be talking about, about you. So I know exactly where we’re going.
(M) Oh dear, oh. The bottom line is control.
(J) Yeah, very much so.
(M) Its humanity wants power. I think that is the hidden agenda of all sin, is that we want to be God. The point of my book is sin is, I am God.
(J) Right, right.
(M) My belief is that that sin, we have not seen or repented of, nor have we understood that’s the meaning of the story of Cain and Able. But I’ve seen that the issue really, the Cain and Able story, I believe it really happened, but it is so symbolic of humanity. It’s so symbolic of the picture of what sin really is. If you don’t repent, if you don’t come under the blood of forgiveness, you will become a murderer. There are just two avenues to go, and the reason Cain murdered was he wanted control and power. Whatever we think power is, that’s what we go for. So control is taking God’s place. I can do it better; you’re not doing it so I will. Or, I want to do it, I want to control people, events, things.
(J) Or I think I can do it. And you, God, have not done it correctly, so let me tell you how to do it and the way to do it, and let me go ahead and do it for you.
(M) Which is insane.
(J) Yes, it’s insane, but it’s where we are.
(M) It’s who we are. Yeah. I’ve had so much experience in forty years of walking with the Lord, and the name of that experience is my trying to control, and people trying to control me. I’ve been in places where people were, ah, people who know the spirit, and live by the spirit, just say, you know, be free Martha, do what you’re led to do, and follow the Spirit. And that is a wonderful liberty of control. That’s not trying to orchestrate the Spirit. It’s not trying to control me. And I’ve been other places where the leader would have an agenda for me. And the agenda would be, fix my church, fix my spouse, fix my child.
(J) I’m wondering if everywhere you’ve been where the leaders have wanted to control you, I’m wondering if really they just wanted to control God. So they were telling God what to do, where to be, in their church. They were trying to be God over it, and they were just using you as a tool to….
(M) To fulfill their agenda.
(M)Absolutely John. And that makes for a complete failure of ministry. Because when there’s an agenda for me, and I go, and the Holy Spirit has given me an agenda, an anointing in a certain direction, oh no, that’s not where they wanted to go. So they didn’t get the whole, they didn’t get it, they didn’t get the ministry that God brought.
(J) Remember the one church that we saw very clearly that the Holy Spirit allows, He gives the permission for the leader to basically to either turn Him off, or turn Him on basically? And that He in His humility allows, where he gives authority to a person, He allows them to basicallybe able to squelch Him and kill the Spirit.
(M) We do have, to a certain point, ah, in Gods set up of free will, we do have the power to exert control. And the shocking thing about Cain is he had the power to murder an innocent man. And God does give us in free will, when we choose, when Adam chose free will, and Eve did too, then they chose to be God, really. And so God gives us the freedom, to a point. Now, if you begin to live under Him, under His dominion, under His sovereignty, then He will begin to reveal, where you are in control, and where others are in control of you. I can look back on forty years John, and my whole walk has been an issue of, my controlling myself in order to control others; or others controlling me, and literally murdering me, by that control. The problem is, when I will not be controlled by my allegiance to Gods will for me, by my surrender to the Spirit. If I refuse to be controlled, then the person will say, she’s not who I thought she was.
(J) Right, right. Yeah.
(M) Or they will build a case against me because I ‘failed’ and I didn’t live up to their agenda; but really it’s just a matter of their control. Ok, so here’s the Lord Jesus; one of the major things of His life that we can see is that He did not lust for control, in one speck. In the wilderness I’ve often taught that the three temptations were Satan tempting Jesus to use power. And that’s control. The temptation to change stones into bread, that was temptation to rule matter. That’s people who want to rule with money, or with goods. The next one was to rule God, jumping off the parapet, and force Gods hand to save you, control God. That’s what we really want to do. We really want to control God. And it comes against His sovereignty. And it’s one reason, when you are in control mode, you do not believe in Gods sovereignty.
(J) And you’re in an incredible place of fear. Because, if your God isn’t in control of this huge universe, then, oh my gosh, what’s gonna happen? So you’re in incredible fear. It’s like a child, you know, when a child’s parent just lets them willy-nilly go, in independence, it places an incredible place of fear. But when there are boundaries, then a security is placed within the child.
(M) Right, right, that’s good. See, sovereignty we said, is the solution to fear, to believe in sovereignty. But there’s so much going on, in the world, in the church, in every arena of every life, there’s so much that is tyranny and control that it seems like God’s not doing anything about it. And so that causes us to doubt His sovereignty; but His sovereignty is over who He allows to control us. He has sent people to control me to
cure me of being controlled, so that I would be committed to being controlled only by God. And in Jesus, the last temptation of Jesus was, bow down and worship me, and I’ll give you the kingdoms of the world. And that was to control man. And Jesus would exert no control, apart from what God gave Him. Jesus operated by authority, not control, and there’s a big difference. And when we get out of control, when we relinquish control, then we are able to function in authority; and that is where the victory is. And then there’s the episode that is famous to me, because God brings it to me so much, the rich young ruler.
(J) Yeah, definitely.
(M) He wanted the kingdom, he wanted eternal life, but he wouldn’t let go of what Jesus touched. He wouldn’t give up control and power of his wealth. And so, he walked away. And Jesus looked at him and loved him.
(J) I read that, just two days ago, and it said He loved him. He looked at him with love. He had love in His heart for him, but He had enough love in His heart to be able to say, ok, you can have your free will.
(M) And I’ve heard people write the end of the story that he came back, but there’s no evidence in the Scripture of that. The point is Jesus didn’t exert any control over him. And you know that’s one of my chastenings, is I will say, let me explain it to you one more time, let me twist your arm, and you’ll get it and then you’ll love the Lord. Well, that’s no better than any other control that takes you from Him. So….
(J) Remember the thing that I say that if you push someone into something, then you’ll have to drag them through it?
(M) No, I didn’t remember that, John. Thank you. But that is, that is very real. So Cain’s the picture of ultimate control, to decide if one should live or die. I was trying to explain to a new believer recently, that to pick up power, is to pick up the satanic. And she was very puzzled. And I said, oh, I’ve got the perfect picture for you, because she knows the story of “The Lord Of The Ring”. Now, some people object to even considering that story, but to me it is the most brilliant parable of our times. I don’t care for “Narnia”. C.S. Lewis’ fantasies are somewhat obvious. But Tolkiens “Lord Of The Ring” is a phenomenal picture of picking up control and power, and of the lust of everyone for it.
(J) Yeah, definitely.
(M) For different reasons, for different agendas. But the ring represented satanic control. Now, if you stretch the story you could say Frodo is the Christ-like figure; gentle, vulnerable, unwilling to pick up control. But that doesn’t follow through on that; so you just have to take the parts of the story that relate and demonstrate. Everyone who put on the ring of power immediately went into the torment of hell.
(M) And the presence of evil spirits. And that’s the brilliance of the story. It’s just a parable. Well, as soon I told her that, she immediately understood that the powers and controls she’d picked up from childhood, had brought her into Satan’s realm. There are two things that will take you into Satan’s realm; one is lying, and the other is control. And control can be simply in your thoughts. You have that one clearly don’t you. (J)Yeah, you know about that.
(M) I do know. I want you to tell about your dream you had years ago.
(J) Oh, well I had a dream that, I don’t remember what was going on actually, but I saw this room full of people. There were no windows, no doors, and they were all having thoughts. And from their thoughts, demons were flying out of that room. And I don’t remember how it was because it’s been awhile, years. But I do remember asking, I didn’t understand, how could the demons be sent out to flight, just by their thoughts? And it was like God said, that’s all he needs. He just needs your agreement in thought. And you can send forth the hordes of hell, basically, by the agreement of thought. And so, basically, they didn’t have to do anything, they didn’t have to murder with their hands. If ‘murder’ was in their thoughts, the demons would torment that person.
(M) Ok, I believe that dream is accurate. It’s accurate John. I know that all dreams aren’t, but I fully believe that dream represents how the demonic works. Because, it doesn’t take anything more than a bad thought pattern that you don’t renounce or repent of, and you have released the demonic.
(J) Well God showed me recently, the truth of that because a couple of weeks ago I was having some thoughts, and it was like He was putting His finger on the thoughts. And I watched how they affected somebody. And I said, oh my gosh, I affected that person by that thought. And I was amazed. It was just kind of like He was putting an underline under that dream, and showing me the reality of that. And I went, oh I don’t want that much control over that; I don’t want to be able to change that by that. It was just a thought I had. And it wasn’t like a fleeting thought, you know, you can push those aside. But it was a thought, and I thought about it, and I kind of meditated on it, just for a little bit, and then all of a sudden I saw how it affected somebody.
(M) Was it a criticism?
(J) I did, I had a, it was a criticism of somebody, and then I watched how that criticism dragged someone’s spirit down, basically. And their whole demeanor changed. And I realized I changed their demeanor through those thoughts. Then I was wondering, if I did that, and it was soulish, then there was something behind it, there was something demonic behind it. I just realized how powerful it is, and how frightening it is, to dwell on what He’s not dwelling on. I don’t have rights to my own thoughts. See, that’s where He was with me today on control. He was telling me that I basically I want to control myself, put myself under law, and control myself. And, I want to control Him. We’re in a drought right now, we’re in a major drought, and I can’t say God make it rain. I can say, God, I bow to this whole situation. I ask You for rain, but I can’t control Him. I don’t know what He’s doing with this drought. I don’t understand it; and I can’t council Him, on when it’s supposed to rain. I can ask, as a child I can ask, but I can’t control Him. And I see that a lot of my prayers are controlling. Oh, let me council you God.
(M) As we heard Giglio say, in this film, indescribable, he said, I council advise correct, God.
(J) Yeah, and that’s what I realize I do; I do it a lot. And I just need to shut up, and bow. I can verbalize my desire, but when I take it into control? Yuk. But between my thoughts and the control of my thoughts, and the control of God, I’m seeing that the Cain pride and arrogance is something that, you know, we just all have to deal with it; but in particular, me.
(M) And of cross, I’ve learned too, in this, John, that He’s taken all these years and all these situations and He’s boiled it down to a pinpoint. And the pinpoint is control. The issue is control. Human nature of itself, will control.