with Martha Kilpatrick and John Enslow
(M) Ok, we can be. Oswald Chambers says, ‘we can be fanatical and ignore the human. Isn’t that what a fanatic is?’ I’ve said to a lot of people, and I’ve said it on tape, “come on down here with the rest of us and be human.” The marvel is that you can be utterly natural and human and manifest Christ; and you can only do it if you are willing to just ‘be’. Or we can become a mixture of the divine and the human. And he says, “We can be fanatical and ignore the human, or sinful and ignore the divine. Or we can become the mixture of the divine and the human”, as He was. That’s my words, “as He was.” “No one is constituted to live a pure divine life on earth. We’re constituted to live human lives on earth, presenced with divinity. A saint is not an ethereal creature too refined for life on this earth. A saint is the mixture of the divine and the human that can stand anything.” And that, that to me, it satisfies my need to understand it. And this morning as I was reading in Ezekiel and Exodus, and I realized that every specific sacrifice; oh, I just went to the heavens over it; every specific sacrifice was Christ taking upon himself the aspects of the Adamic nature. And my Adamic nature, if I could see it by revelation, and live it and believe itf; my Adamic nature has been removed. It’s just that I believe in it, that it manifests itself. But the bull, the young bull, the male goat, the sacrifice of the lambs, the meal offering, all of that is Christ bearing that sin nature that cannot come into the presence of God. I think I’ve told you before and we’ve talked about it; I said to the Father one day in just kind of delight, ‘I want to just run into your presence Father’. And He said to me, “You can come, so long as everything in your life, past, present, future, known and unknown, is covered by the blood.” It stunned me… my only access to the Father. We are so cavalier and so… We don’t understand His holiness. He cannot bear the presence of the sin nature so He solved it. We can go to Him with it for the sake of the blood, but he cannot fellowship with the sin nature. And Paul was trying to express that in Rom. 7 and 8 that the law of the Spirit has set us free from the law of death, sin and death. And Christ paid for every aspect of the sin nature, which is remember, the relationship between the human and the devil. It’s why God said to Cain, “Sin is crouching at your door”, and it was in the Hebrew a persona, a ‘being’ not an ‘act’. “Sin is crouching at your door, but you must master it.” It would have you, but you must master it.
(J) Well, so often I curb the whole thing with condemning. I will curb it and I’ll say ‘this is me so this is obviously sin’. You know what I mean? I think I send it all over to the curb and I say, ‘if it has anything to do with me it’s obviously sin’. And then I live in a crippled state because I’m continually condemning myself, parenting myself, and I just don’t believe I’m the only person that does this.
(M) No, you’re not; and my problem I’ve known, and I’m coming to a faith, but my problem is, I believe in my sin nature. I believe I can’t be rid of it, and that it’s always hounding me. And that is unbelief, because He has solved every aspect of that sinful nature, and He wants to enjoy me in the creation, in human form that was originally His idea of ‘me’.
(J) And see that’s what I think I haven’t done. I don’t believe that He has an enjoyment of me.
(M) No you don’t, and I know He does.
(J) You do. You will say it. But I go, how can You enjoy ‘this’, because I can’t stand it’s so bad. You know?
(M) Ah, it’s humility John.
(J) So then it’s obviously pride that’s my problem.
(M) (Laughter) Well mine too. But you have to become…. See, God created this wonderful thing called a human. This intricate, original thing….
(J) Fearfully and wonderfully made…
(M) Oh, yeah, fearfully and wonderfully made. But He created that human being to be dependent on Him, utterly; for every idea, for every word, for every wisdom, for every bite of food, for every, for absolutely every need. He created us to be dependent and need Him. And when He works with the born-again believer, He works to take you back to that state of dependence. Because Oswald says, calls it ‘your right to yourself.’ I call it, “Sin is not needing God.” Sin is independence. See wherever you have the right to speak and do as you please, that is the sin nature. But dependence on Him… You have to become comfortable, to be utterly vulnerable and utterly dependent, and that’s humility. It’s not humility until it’s that. Humility is not some groveling service and some poor me. I’m just wretched. No, humility is natural dependence on God that is every moment of your life. And that’s where the human and the divine connect. If you can be dependent on Him, for the very… how to view anything. You have to hear what to do about everything. In my life I’ve never been more dependent than I am right now. I’m completely in need of Him. My very, my very heart’s emotions are dependent on what He says to me and does in me. And John, you don’t know that when we were in the airport in Rome, the Lord said, “I want to guide you every moment”, and He said, “You will be delayed on this flight three hours.”
(J) No, you didn’t tell me that. (John laughs)
(M) Well we were delayed one hour and a half before we left Rome, and I thought I had not heard Him right, it kind of discouraged me. But by the time we got through the Madrid airport it had been exactly three hours from what was scheduled, and the family had waited in that airport three hours not knowing what on earth was going on; patiently and kindly, and were only glad to see us and not, you know, not fretful over it. But on the airplane I was a little anxious, and the Lord caught me. I was anxious to be something to this family; they’re so dear to us. And I knew that was wrong, but that was my dependence coming out, and He said, “What do you need to do for that family this moment?” And I said, “Nothing”. He said, “I will be there, and I will be the life at the moment I need to be there.” And I’m not here for them anyway I’m here for the Lord, to love Him. That’s always my mandate. But, does that make sense? I was so… He was preparing me for a three-hour delay, but when it didn’t happen in Rome then I assumed I had not heard Him. (Laughter) But it was a trial. That three hours was a trial for us.
(J) Which is still actually going on, because we don’t have my bag.
(M) But I wrote you a note and said ‘this is what God has given us, and we will not complain, and we will be thankful’. So we haven’t mentioned the trials that we went through of different sorts, (Laughter) because that gratitude is what He gave me that moment on the airplane. And I have yet to learn; sometimes I get it, sometimes I don’t. I have yet to learn to live in that dependence for this moment and not tomorrow. That’s kind of where my unbelief kicks in, is that, oh my goodness, I’ve got to bring You to these people, and I don’t have anything. (Laughter) I’m so… I stay so empty before Him, and when He fills me I’m sometimes not even aware.
(J) Ok, I was going to give what’s in my head here, and I think you’ve just answered what it is. I was going to say I am… I rob myself of my liberty because I fear my license.
(J) And so I continually will rob myself of liberty. I will basically squander on the grace that I have to live and be human, because I’m afraid of license. And so, and what you’ve just said, that relates to that is I’m not being dependent.
(M) You keep yourself.
(J) I’m trying to keep myself. And I’m not allowing my Lord to keep me from license. And what we have found, that any time you try to keep yourself, you’ll run yourself right into the ditch; and I’ve done it, many, many, many times. And so, I just want to live in liberty Martha. I really want to live in the liberty.
(M) And the liberty is that Christ in you is sufficient for this moment. You know John, I think people have responded so positively to these podcasts. I think what this podcast is, is two very human people being willing to be human publicly. And…
(J) I’ve told you I’ve tried. I’ve tried, I’ve tried my darndest to hide that, but it’s always this beacon that just says…
(M) Well, and see, but this is how you become the child that alone can enter the kingdom. The child that alone can know the Father. The child is one who simply ‘is’, and who is kept. And all that you’ve described is what I would sum up by saying it’s adult.
(J) Exactly, yeah.
(M) And adult is always self-sufficiency, which is independence of God.
(J) Ok, so then how do I get delivered from my ‘adult’? And I mean it is in me. I’m telling you it is in me to try to control. There we go there’s that lovely word again. Trying to control that for fear of license, for fear of the sin nature, for fear of being in error, for fear of, you know. How do I? It’s just, Martha, I would say that it is so much energy to maintain something that I cannot maintain, I can’t do it. I cannot do it. I wasn’t created to do it.
(M) Right. Well He showed me years ago, you try to contain that and it only takes you over. You can’t control the sin nature. I don’t know, John, I think the answer is surrender to be His vessel. By choice, that’s your job. That’s what we’ve been talking about. You just surrender to be the vessel. He will bring you to the dependence, and instead of fretting, just lean. Instead of anguishing with it, lean on Him. But I tell you, He will bring you to the dependence that you want; He will bring you there. The cross does it; life brings you the cross and kills that independence. And then the other thing is the revelation that you are solved; the revelation that comes from God that you are crucified in Christ. You’re dead. And it’s like the tape I did called “Living Dead”… When you can understand that the solution to you is that you are dead. Someone said to me recently, “I just need to be dead.” No, no, you don’t need to be dead.
(J) You are dead.
(M) You are dead. You need to see and believe that you are dead. And that’s how I cope with myself so much, I say ‘wait a minute. I’m dead’. A dead woman doesn’t get her feelings hurt. A dead woman doesn’t fret. A dead woman doesn’t get angry. I am crucified. I am dead in Christ. And it’s, “I am crucified with Christ, and I no longer live; the life I now live I live by faith in the Son of God”. And it should be, “I live by the faith of the Son of God”.
(J) That’s in the “Overcomers” series of messages, and those CD’s, the “Living Dead” one; and you’ve told me several times to go back and listen to that, and I do, believe me I do. It is; it is a difficult message to master, because the message has to master you.