The Loving Trinity
Episode #198

With Martha Kilpatrick and hosted by John Enslow

Special guest: Jacquelyn Nawrocki

(M) And I started in this particular chapter in Austin… I don’t even know what book this is. He said, “We started by pointing out that behind the universe, behind the mind, the reason, the plan, the design, there is a heart. The universe exists as an answer to that heart. Today that heart in its love is bleeding. It has suffered a great deal of disappointment, deprivation; it’s been robbed of its object—the wife has been unfaithful.” He’s still referring to Israel. “But the Lord comes out in the presence of that and says, I love you, and I still love you; My love is everlasting. Therefore I’ve kept you and preserved you to this hour.” And he’s going to in the end, solve it, Israel will be saved in one day. And it applies… he takes it to the New Testament, it’s quoted in the New Testament, he takes it there that it is about us too. What is the website, for Giglio?

(J) You can go to Louie Giglio, it’s Giglio (John spells it), and it’s…I think it’s 268store.com, you can actually buy those DVD’s. There’s “Indescribable”, which is from here to going ‘outward’; and then there’s “How Great Is Our God”. “How Great Is Our God”, that takes it and goes from the Infinite God and goes ‘into us’. So it goes both directions, one, going out to the universe, and then one going in. So, it’s kind of a neat picture. And he does it in such a childlike, real charged way, but it doesn’t feel like ‘hype’, and it’s wonderful, and I really appreciate it.

(M) Well, my daughter Julie and I were talking about it yesterday, and she said that he has started a church in Atlanta. And she hadn’t told me this, but she and a friend went, and a couple of her kids went with them. And she said that he is fantastic as a preacher, that he’s very Spirit-filled. And he would be, he’s enthusiastic and so, we may just have to visit.

(J) Well, I’m just thinking of how when I was little, from fear, I would always run to ‘get away’. I would run to protect myself, and to hide, and to shield myself. I would go and find a place of safety. But I didn’t run to my Mom. And that was just my concept and how I was relating. But that, I’m realizing in you saying this, how amazingly He, His whole work of salvation is to take me to an everlasting ‘mother-love’. I ‘ran from’, but He’s saying, uh, uh.  I want you to come and abide in My everlasting ‘mother-love’. And so, that is my redemption, is to take me to that love. And it’s been a hard process because my natural inclination is to run.

(M) And take care of yourself.

(J) Ultimately, hmhmm, very much so.

(M) Well it’s interesting because I talked in the conference about the Father, the Father-hood of God. But I’ve always believed that the Holy Spirit functions as the ‘mother-heart’ of God. And all of our need for relationship is in the Trinity.

(J) Hmhmm.

(M) We need a father, we’re father-less, we need a mother, we’re mother-less.

(J) Hmhmm.

(M) I was mother-less from ten. And then Christ is our Lover. We have three relationships that we are created to need and are incomplete without, and they are fully… That’s why I so believe it’s wonderful to… And I read this years ago, and I’ve asked God for it, it spoke about someone who had an individual relationship with each part of the Trinity. That they are really… They are One, same character, same identity, yet they are individually known, and they have an individual relationship toward us. The Holy Spirit derives everything from the Father and gives it to us. The Father is the Great Supreme.

(J) I can see the distinction really clear, you know?  I can see the Father, the strength, the discipline.  I can see that real clear. But, and then I can see Jesus as Lover.  But the Spirit is just so tender and so like a mother, very soft, tender, hurtable.

(M) Well, compassionate and present. What are the words of the Holy Spirit? Comforter, Advocate, what else? Councilor. Yeah, the Holy Spirit is right there. I don’t know how to say it.

(J) Like a mother.

(M) Like a mother would hover. And even in creation the Holy Spirit hovered over the void, and then God spoke, and Jesus created. So the whole Trinity was…

(J) It’s amazing, it really is.

(M) Yeah, isn’t it? And don’t we lack if we don’t know each One. One of the great works of the enemy is either to eliminate Jesus or eliminate the Holy Spirit. Can’t really eliminate God and have any kind of religion. But you can eliminate the Holy Spirit and completely ignore Him.

(J) Or the Personhood of Christ.

(M) Or the Personhood of Christ, yeah. Even in… I’ve had a fresh experience that even as Spirit-filled believer’s we can be pharisaical. Because if you operate by a principle and the principle applies to every situation, and every person, that is legalism. It removes the Person; it removes the need for the Person of Jesus, and the Person of the ‘mother’ Holy Spirit. You can’t say ok, this is what God always does. And I have such an almost fiery reaction against that because it erases any need to hear God. It goes back to ‘a law’; it’s simply a new law. And what Israel did was add laws upon laws upon laws to the basic law of God. And we can do that any, any time it is a matter of principle or idealisms or predicting what God will be. “God always does it this way.” Well, you don’t know the Bible or Him. I used to think that way too, until He started my life, living with Him. He is, He does as He pleases. And Romans nine through eleven is a good place to go to find that out. I’ll have mercy on who I’ll have mercy, and I’ll do as I please. He can’t be predicted beyond a certain point.

(Jacquelyn) I think of Job’s friends, and that’s what they did to him. And they really did that to Job. I don’t know how to express it.

(M) Thank you, because that’s exactly what happened to me recently. I had a Job’s friend sit down and lecture me. And I thought about Job, Jacquelyn, because what they did was tell the truth that didn’t apply to that situation. They told the truth without hearing what God was after. And what they did was say, “Job, it’s sin in your… it’s just sin.” And they presumed a principle. Well, it looks like in the end that they became sick. They had to experience somehow what Job went through, and you do.

(Jacquelyn) I often wonder if they became sick or if they were sick, and that their sickness was expressed to Job.

(M) I’ve thought that too.

(Jacquelyn) In condemnation of him.

(M) I’ve thought that too. But I think it also could be that what they sowed they reaped and became sick; and they were only healed by Job’s prayers for them; which meant he had to forgive too. (Martha chuckles) So it’s…and there’s never… Job was perfect, there was never any sin that God named, that provoked his illness. And the man, I always think of the man who lay there thirty-eight years crippled, and he was healed for the glory of God.

(Jacquelyn) Hmhmm.

(M) Thank you for bringing that up, Jacquelyn, that’s valid. We, if we eliminate the Holy Spirit’s voice, we’re into legalism, or in religion, or license; legalism or license. ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word from the Voice, every word from the mouth of God.’ But you know what? It can also be that you think your thoughts are God.

(J) Hmhmm.

(M) If you, if you are not really under the Lordship and Headship of Christ, you will say this is God when it’s not.  It’s you, and you put God’s name on what you say.

(J) And feel and think.

(M) And feel and think. So that’s…

(Jacquelyn) I know how that hurts and offends me, and I can’t imagine how it hurts and offends the Holy Spirit to be so disregarded.

(M) uhm-uhm-uhm.

(J) I just remember how, you speaking about your own children as a mother, and going through the teen-age years, and you just said that uhm, you know, I’m hurtable here, and you can’t do this to me.  You know?  I’m wide open to you, I’m vulnerable to you, and I, I cannot have you do this, basically, to me, meaning the rebellion, the hatred, the violence that we can have as teenagers, you know? You just basically said, you know, please don’t do this to me.

(M) Yeah John, I started their teenage years telling them that, and we had a marvelous teenage era. But I would say, ok, it’s going to be natural for you to strike out at me, and you can tell me anything. You can sit down and object. You can say ‘don’t’. You can say anything to me that you want to say, but you cannot rip me apart, because I love you, and I’m hurtable. You’re right; I did do that with them. And as a result they really, I think, I don’t remember that we had that much difficulty that they made personal attacks on me.

(J) Yeah, they went to their natural thing, like we all do, but they didn’t… In that I see how that’s like the Spirit. The Spirit says don’t grieve Me, don’t wound Me. I am woundable, I am grievable, do not hurt Me like that, please, because I am open and I am vulnerable to you, and because I am so open and vulnerable to you I am woundable.

(M) Oh my goodness. You just made it real to me.

(J) Well, I’ve always seen that, I’ve just never said it. And I always said, wow that is just like the Spirit would do, just basically saying I’m really wide open to you, please don’t hurt me. And that’s just amazing that the God of the universe that has created everything would say please don’t hurt Me, don’t wound Me, don’t grieve Me. Because I am grievable, I am that vulnerable and open to you. Though I created everything, though I know everything, though I am ultimate of all knowledge and all understanding and all wisdom, I still am so wide open, vulnerable, to your momentary… And that’s really kinda where I’m kind of at right now; I’m really on the moment. I am vulnerable to your momentary whim of emotion, and feeling, and thought. So please don’t damage Me, don’t hurt Me. Thought He’ll allow you to do it, though you can go into it, it’s like He’s entreating us to please be sensitive to Him.

(M) Hmmm, He is. “Don’t quench the Spirit.”

(J) I’ve always seen that, when I’ve heard that I’ve always thought you know, I’ve heard it from a different point of view. I’ve heard it from more like a father saying, ‘don’t tick me off’. (Martha laughs) You know, don’t cross me, don’t tick me off. I’ve never heard it from the everlasting motherly love of God, the Spirit of God, which it is relating to. It’s not relating to the Father-heart of God, it’s relating to the Spirit of God. It’s saying, “Don’t quench the Spirit”, which is the ‘mother’, the everlasting, and so He’s saying… I’ve mistranslated that completely in my head.  I’ve always seen it as don’t tick me off, don’t cross me, and it is please don’t hurt Me, as a ‘mother’.

(M) Hmhmm.

(J) Please don’t hurt Me as a ‘mother’, please don’t wound My heart. And when I detached that motherly love from, from the Spirit of God, I’m skewed in my whole belief system. But when you look at it and see it’s a mother, a damageable mother, a soft, tender, intuitive, sensitive,

(M) Serving…

(J) Serving, soft. I just see soft, I see curved and soft, I don’t see the angularness of a father, I see the soft form of a mother.

(M) You’re describing the dove.

(J) Ok, there you have it.

(M) Isn’t it that the dove has no gallbladder?

(J) Yeah, absolutely.

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