When God Hurts You –
April 14, 2013
With Martha Kilpatrick and hosted by John Enslow
Special guests: Gunter Nawrocki, Carole Nelson, and Jacquelyn Nawrocki
(M) I just really appreciate that you two share your pain, really, because it’s, it’s the proof of the dying. It’s the proof of the work of the cross, the pain is, and it’s, it’s extreme. And I know that there are many who don’t believe that kind of suffering is of God; who don’t believe that kind of anguish of really feeling your opposition to Him, of really experiencing your, your disappointment, that that shouldn’t be. No it’s, it is legitimate pain. And it’s, we only die to our opposition to Him by feeling our opposition to what He’s done and not done. And then ultimately that takes us to know He is God and I’m not. So I appreciate the raw; I appreciate the raw experience publicly, that kind of agony of the cross. And Gunter’s right, it is the cross is pain. It is dying. I think what we stand for to whomever is out there, what we stand for is the reality of experiencing God, not just knowing about Him, but knowing Him through our experiences of what He does and doesn’t do. And I covet for all of us, for all of you, the experience of knowing that you could have murdered Him because He’s God, and you can’t rule Him and contain Him and stop Him and, and you’re not safe from Him. That realization is gut wrenching and horrible. And when you come up against that you have come to know He really is God, and He doesn’t move, and He’s there.
(Gunter) I believe you can take this hurt that you’re supposed to have and say no to it. Then you become a stone without feelings. Ah, you cannot relate to people anymore because you don’t have any more feelings. So I praise God for having hurt, and He gave it back to me. There was a time in my life I didn’t have any hurt, so it is a lot easier to live with hurt than without a hurt.
(Carole) And I’m overwhelmed with His faithfulness when I don’t even know where I am or how I feel. For Him to prod me in gentleness and kindness, even to rage, He will, He will push me to the limit of what’s in my heart, when I can’t do it. I can’t, I can’t do it myself. I don’t even; I don’t even know what holds me. I don’t know what fortresses me. Only He knows what fortresses me. And His love is so strong, and He wants me to love Him back that much that He would come and prod me to the extremes of my heart, to set me free. It’s not even me, it’s always going to be a testimony of my God Who is bigger than me and is that full of the Niagara of love. He is faithful to do beyond what I even ask Him to do.
(M) It’s been popular to talk about being intimate with God, being in intimacy. But to realize how intimate He is with me, and how much he knows me to the depths of my being. He knows what I need to know how intimate He is.
(J) There’s one thing to have romantic intimacy, and love intimacy, there’s another kind of intimacy that knows when you need surgery and to cut off a piece of you that is cankerous, or gangrenous, or cancerous, or whatever. And that’s how far He knows me, that He’s, yes, able to have the intimacy of romance and love, but He’s able to also hack at my body and take pieces of my body that are needing pruning. That’s an intimate One that knows, that knows me in whole and knows what I need in whole. When I demand, and we’ve had people that have responded to the website, and they’ve been demanding God’s tangible love, and I’m thinking they’re looking for a romance without… Yeah, there can be a flesh romance, but a romance, at least an embrace. You say, “God, this is what You would have to do in order to make me pleased.” And God may be saying, “But, your pleasure isn’t what I’m looking for. I’m looking to make you whole. And in this case I have to hack something off of you that is cancerous. And uhm, you know I would love to say that I could direct my relationship with God and say when He’s going to do it and orchestrate the entire thing. But I can tell you that I would be a complete monster and a bastardization of any kind of Christian life. I can’t be, I’m not God, so I can’t tell God how to be God. Like you say, if you tell me how to be the leader, then you’re the leader. And so, I have to trust Him. There’s the trust. There’s the dying and the trust and the belief that He is able to make me whole and knows what needs to be done to make me whole. I can’t tell, I just never will be able to tell God how to be God. I never can do it.
(M) Because you don’t know you. Not only do we not know God, we don’t know… This is the verse I’m looking for. Galatians. “But now that you’ve come to know God, or rather be known by God.” It’s one thing to know Him; it’s another to be known. Another verse says, “If anyone loves God, he is known by God.” That’s First Corinthians eight three, and I’ve gotta look at it in the Amplified. Yeah, John, you all are doing great. Ok, 1Cor.8:3 in the Amplified says, “If anyone loves God truly, with affectionate reverence, prompt obedience, and grateful recognition of His blessing, he is known by God, recognized as worthy of His intimacy and love, and he is owned by Him.” I love that verse! 1Cor 8:3 in the Amplified, “If one loves God truly……he is known by God, recognized as worthy of His intimacy and love, and he is owned by Him.” It’s to be known of God. It’s shocking how He knows us individually. It’s one thing to know humanity. It’s one thing to know your flock, but to know each individual to the depths of their being, and sheep are ignorant of everything, especially themselves. And children are ignorant. They have to be cared for by One Who knows what they need.
(Gunter) And Andrew Murray in his book “Abide In Christ”, “The heart occupied with its friends, and therefore for doing God’s will and seeking the blessing of abiding in Jesus, must fail continuously. God’s work is hindered by our interference.”
(Jacquelyn) We want romantic love, and sometimes God’s highest love for us is anger, and we don’t like that. And that anger is cleansing and it’s purifying and it’s holy and it’s right and it’s just, and it hurts.
(M) And His anger is only against the death that we love to hold onto. And if we won’t let it go; if we won’t see it for what it is, then He has to come as a disciplinarian with a sword in His hand. And it’s always to save your life from the loss of your life. It’s incredible that He would be willing to do it. It’s just incredible.
(J) He has to do it, because there’s nothing else. There’s no other type of human than the clutching, gripping, grasping, death loving, sucking, human. That’s what we love, we love dirt. We came from dirt and we love dirt, and we continually return to dirt and suck dirt. That’s just who we are. And God says I have something higher than dirt. I’ve called you out of the dirt existence, and that’s glorious where He’s saying I have something so much higher. I’m so glad that He is able to see such a bigger picture. If He was human and had a small brain like mine, we would all be in so much trouble. But He doesn’t, He has a, He has a consciousness so much higher that can point out and say this is what needs to go on to get that one to let go of the dirt. And so I surrender to the process. The process is beautiful and glorious and I will always forever and ever, amen, be in gratitude and praise that He was able to get this one who so is committed to dirt, to let go of dirt. I’m committed. A dog returns to his vomit, and I return to the dirt. I love dirt.
(Gunter) But how good it is when you’re still young when you can start there, not wait until your seventy and eighties.
(J) I think the miracle of any age getting it is a miracle. That, that’s a phenomenal miracle. What’s so wonderful is that He’s able to in seventies or forties or thirties, whoever it is, whenever it is, or twenties or teens, or whenever He wants to do it. And even that I have to surrender to, because I would have loved it to be when I was in my twenties when I got saved. I would have loved for it to have happened then and not have trampled over people and over myself and, and created a sea of death. I would love to say it was, oh, but even that I have to surrender to God and say that was Your purpose and You’re God so You knew exactly when to bring it in to me, when to address it, and when to, you know. There again I can’t be God. I would love to say, no, no, there isn’t twenty years of walking over people, but there is.